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asleep at mal 9/09
fer fucks sake... 
7/24/09 2:19
asleep at mal 9/09
sci-fi fandom fails again...

Bingo! RaceFail, LGBTQFail & Misogyny all in one small act of fannish cluelessness

A few clueless slashers fetishize real queer people while throwing in fun sides of racism and misogyny:


(from http://rm.livejournal.com/1674195.html)

and a simple, eloquent follow up... http://karnythia.livejournal.com/1319501.html

and my response to karnythia's post and a comment from bay_bus_rider

"Are these people really confusing their squee for some kind of civil rights struggle? What BS. The insulting MLK comparison is just icing on the cake."

This is the part that really gets me - almost any positive LGBT portrayal of a featured character in ST would be awesome, but Kirk/Spock? I just can't see it, nor from Kirk's behavior at the Academy or his reaction to Spock/Uhura does it feel like it would fit his character (come on - he's a bit of a misogynist ass in the film, as he was in TOS), and Spock is obviously in a relationship already.

What is it with fandom and the sense of entitlement it seems to breed? I've been reading and watching sci-fi for 35 years now, but never knew about fandom until maybe the last five years, and I honestly find so many of the attitudes appalling - didn't your parents teach you how to behave in public? Don't you realize how insulting this crap is, not to mention how degrading to those of us who do? The creators/writers/actors/etc are NOT your bitch.

oh, and this post too... http://telesilla.livejournal.com/776157.html - see the added lesbians don't count because they're more socially acceptable link at the bottom too
(Deleted comment)
7/24/09 13:16 (UTC)
and as i noted, i didn't really pay much attention to fandom at all until about 5 years ago (although i've attended cons longer than that, it was more of a hey i like that band, my friends are going and we'll be taking over floor 9 to party, i want to take a vacation in a hotel and spend time with x, y, and z too boot)

i can understand what you're saying though; i believe we're still going to d*c provided we can afford it
7/24/09 14:55 (UTC)
I just thought I should point out that hardcore trek canon freaks tend by and large to be pretty scary conservative apart form that minor deviation. Additionally, many of them INVENTED internet trolling. Being upset and angry is totally understandable but expecting those chimps to abruptly develop a social consciousness is unrealistic.

They should just be whispered.
7/24/09 15:01 (UTC)
if this were garden variety geeks i would probably ignore it as expected

this is a group "trying" to promote LGBT in the media in general and in ST:Reboot in particular - so them? they get ire for this level of stupid

i usually pay little attention to fandom in part because of the general asshatery though so i do get it
7/24/09 16:20 (UTC)
Fandom wank* has already picked up the story/ train wreck. As the saying goes, with friends like these, who needs enemies?
So what I think that you are saying, is pro or con, slash is not social equality, it is pr0n for straight women by straight women, and portraying it as social equality is, among other things, a distraction from real LGBT issues. Is that what you are trying to get at, because I agree? Yes, a same-sex romantic relationship in SF would be great, which is why they keep cropping up on Torchwood (although I kind of have a problem with Ianto's recent revelation about his relationship with Jack).

Their bias generally tends to be towards mocking any and all participants in debates springing from stupid statements by fen on LJ. At least they tend to be pretty equal opportunity in their mockery. I will warn you: Fandom Wank is a little addictive
7/24/09 17:06 (UTC)
actually what i'm really saying is that
* i support wholeheartedly the idea of LGBT portrayals in more SF
* that i'd love to see this done and well in the ST:Reboot universe in particular, but that the idea that it needs to be K/S is not what those of us who are LGBT want by and large
* that the idea of having Kirk replace Uhuru as a love interest at this point is offensive to POC
* that really, the whole thread about not supporting this mess if you are LGBT is = not supporting MLK jr if you're not white and
* that lesbian's don't count because they're "more accepted by society" is such utter and complete bullshit these people need to be taught how to behave and until they do they should shit down, shut up and stop embarrassing those of us who do know how to act respectfully
7/24/09 17:41 (UTC)
*yeah. The rest of popular culture too-- the degree to which all of it marginalizes same-sex relationships is obnoxious.
*Based on my own background (I did not have a particularly heteronormative upbringing-- my folks are straight but we belonged to a church that performs same-sex marriages, my Sunday school teacher was gay, I just did not pick up as much of the intolerance that pervades our culture as most people) I wish that same-sex relationships were not treated as an anomaly in popular culture.
-*Is that part of your objection to the obsession with K/S?
-*not enough of a fan to be familiar with the Reboot universe, so cannot comment on that aspect, but wanting to see it done well, rather than with particular characters, makes sense to me.
*Interesting point. Please elaborate.
*The thread to which you refer sounds absurd, and no wonder you have a problem with it.
*I am similarly stunned by that, and similarly concur with your annoyance. What is with these people?
7/24/09 18:02 (UTC)
-*Is that part of your objection to the obsession with K/S?
-*not enough of a fan to be familiar with the Reboot universe, so cannot comment on that aspect, but wanting to see it done well, rather than with particular characters, makes sense to me.
*Interesting point. Please elaborate.

the two big objections i have to spock/kirk as cannon are that there is no way to make this work - kirk is too misogynistic even in the new ST:Reboot alternat universe, and that even if you could come up with a plausible reason for our resident misogynist to suddenly want teh hot mansex what about the obviously serious relationship between spock & uhuru? does she get dropped like the girlfriend of the week?

ST fandom makes a huge deal about how enlightened TOS was in part because the first ever interracial kiss on TV was kirk/uhura (although that one is a bit problematic from today's pov in that it only happened because one of the aliens forced it - it wasn't a choice they willingly made), while at the same time complaining about how poorly women were treated overall (ie: the women were pretty powerless on TOS and their uniforms were rather sexist)

and now they want to take the more enlightened reboot, and remove the relationship between the only woman on the bridge (and someone spock treats as his equal which he doesn't do with kirk) and the newly promoted 2nd in command - if that happens at the start of the next film it'll make it seem like the spock/uhura thing was using her feminity and her status as a POC as an exotic flavoring - so lets drop women's rights and racial equality back to the 1970s again

anyway - i'm not sure if there was a third question in there that i missed somehow, if so let me know - but the main point is many LGBT find the K/S thing to be problematic, and if Uhuru/Spock was a fling a lot of women and POC are going to be unhappy as well

karnythia and others linked from her post have perhaps done a better job of covering some of this than i have here (memory and logic = not my strong suit these days) but i think i've gotten the important stuff down
7/24/09 19:22 (UTC) - On a side note,
After revisiting the links, I am addicted to karnythia's blog.
7/28/09 20:31 (UTC)
i think there is a real difference between real fans who are people with varied interests and lives of their own and the obsessive uber-fans that make their entire world about the thing they've focused on. it's like the difference between a real significant other/spouse and a stalker. most fans of things are not emotionally disturbed self-loathing misanthropes desperately trying to build a sense of self or purpose in their life by building an elaborate intimate fantasy with fictional characters, but the ones that DO try to do that are often unfortunately vocal on the subject.